The amount of credit people give Steve Jobs is such a kick to the nuts to all the engineers that designed those products
But did they wear jeans and black turtlenecks?
I do have a black turtleneck and without thinking I came into work wearing it with jeans. That with my glasses, well I got teased a bit.
But did you gain reality distortion powers?
Im not gonna sit here and shill for people like job and musk. But i have to say there is somethkng to be said about steering a ship in the right direction.
Jobs knew how to market the products, and steer the engineers in the right direction.
One thing he always said was that there only needed to be one iphone and one ipad. I recall that the with the ipad he said it was the perfect size and didn’t need alternatives or it would become less functional.
Then he died and the ipad mini was released, as well as the iphone 5c.
In 2012, the year following the iphone 5c and the year of the ipad mini apple lost its global market lead to android.
They diluted the product and confused the market of loyalists and general consumers by releasing multiple versions of their main product and if you ask me, thats when the cracks started to show.
Apple havent had a majority of the global market share for years now.
Jobs knew marketing, but that is about it.
It was Wozniak with the great ideas.
I think what Jobs really understood was that in a world of Ford, people crave a Ferrari.
Making the best be beautiful and accessible is hard, but you do it through focus and intentionality. Jobs, despite his many, many faults did that well.
The same with Musk. People are seeing him as the sole engineer of Tesla and SpaceX while in reality anonymous engineers did all this possible.
And it doesn’t help Musk calls himself lead engineer or whatever at times.
I think in one of his autobiographies he was claiming that he self educated how to build rockets from some books and I wonder how much of this is true and how much is coming from his ego.
From Mr. “make rocket pointier because LOL”? I’ll put my money on the latter option.
True, but without him both Tesla and SpaceX would not be here. Same for Jobs, without him Apple probably would not be what it is.
It’s one thing to make a tool accomplish a task.
It’s another thing to beat the engineers until grandma can operate the tool.
I didn’t like the guy either, and found it funny that his own bullshit killed him in the end, but he did add “value”.
and found it funny that his own bullshit killed him in the end
Which is also what all those people credit him for, the kind of thinking that gets you killed by choosing “alternative medicine” over science. Apple devices make that seem to be a valid approach to the world.
It beats me how they don’t see the irony.
Quick plug for the Behind the Bastards series on Jobs
I fucking love that podcast. So well researched and perfectly presented
Jobs basically had one job - be the screaming obnoxious asshole in charge who harangued the engineers until they came up with something to his liking. And then took the credit when they did. Basically just the Elon Musk of his day.
Crying smelly barefoot goblin man. Jobs was such an asshole.
“I’m vegan! I don’t need to shower! I don’t produce mucus or smell because of my superior diet. Brb I’m gonna go wash my feet in the toilet!” -Steve Jobs
fly me to more liver transplants, stat! The last one didn’t get rid of my cancer!
Except I can look at Jobs’ history and see an actual progression in technology. With Musk there is literally nothing but nonsensical hyped up promises.
Why can’t you make the same argument for that dick hole musk? Neither one has any engineering capabilities, and were a non-technical figurehead overseeing people with the actual talents making the technology better.
Jobs may have had an actual design element of input that I doubt musk has, but neither one of them actually improved technology; they have smarter people working for them that can do it. That’s especially true of Jobs with Woz, one of the actual people who improved technology at apple.
Im not praising musk, and i really think he fucked up his lead on twitter and tesla, but he is very much similar to jobs. Neither musk nor jobs have done really any of the engineering work, but both have had their hands in some pretty remarkable tech. Musk with paypal, spacex, tesla. Again, im not saying hes a good engineer, he hasnt done anything, but to discredit those companies is unfair.
Progression Jobs didn’t do though, just Apple’s engineers.
I think we can give Musk credit for progressing technology - electric cars & space rocketry and some other things. But he is also an incredible asshole, has little regard for the people who work for him, has no inner filter and has some incredibly stupid hot takes.
Except he didn’t. Jobs progressed technology by essentially bullying engineers into making it a reality. Musk didn’t even put that effort in. He bought companies that were already doing these things
I think that is disingenuous. It’s clear Musk has been a driving force in Tesla and to a lesser extent in SpaceX and Starlink. And while I hate the guy with a passion and think he is a massive prick who is an awful boss and who takes credit for other’s work, I have no doubt that if not for him EVs wouldn’t be a mainstream technology they are today. Just like with Apple and smart phones, Tesla did not invent the electric car but they made the first cars people actually wanted to buy.
Gwynne Shotwell deserves quite a lot more credit for SpaceX than Musk. Someone has to keep the place running until the ketamine clears his system.
I listened to an interview with Scott Forestall several years back and he discusses the meeting he was in where Steve Jobs basically gave them the idea for the iPhone. He had seen the multi-touch displays, initially just used for very large displays, and also was seeing mobile phones take off at the same time. He was the one who put those two together and told the team to work on it. Sure, the product managers and designers came up with the details of the product and engineers figured out the tech to support it, but without that initial idea and leadership’s support to expend resources on building it, it may not have happened.
There are a lot of companies with bad uninspiring leadership that just ship what everyone else is shipping. Apple under Steve Jobs was trying to innovate.
The amount of credit people give Steve Jobs is such a kick to the nuts to all the engineers that designed those products
Try to lead an engineering team and make them all pull the same way and create a high quality, cohesive offering. It’s not as simple as you think. Good engineers should be recognized, but so should actual good leadership and technical vision. Steve’s visions may not always have been hits (and he often struggled with pricing) but it’s undeniable he had vision.
Even if we think about commerce and popularization stuff - people like Bill Joy or James Clark or many other names are much cooler than this particular salesman.
I mean, certainly he gets more credit than deserved. But I find it hard to deny the major impact he had. When he was hired back as CEO in the late 90s, Apple already had talented engineers, but there was no coherence or direction in what they were working on, and the next gen OS was never going to happen. Back then, CEO Michael Dell was asked what he’d do if he were in charge of Apple and he said he’d shut it down. Apple was a punching bag in the industry.
Jobs immediately made radical changes at the company, eliminating most of their product line which was superfluous and confusing, shutting down software projects that were “neat” but didn’t fit into a vision, putting them on the path to release OS X (which his company had envisioned and developed the basis for while he was away from Apple), changing their marketing strategy, making the most clear-cut product line I’d ever seen, and turning conference keynotes into must-see TV. And in addition to that he pushed Apple towards the iMac, the iPod and the music store, and the iPhone.
It took amazing engineers and a lot of work and pain to actually deliver these products. And Jobs does get more credit than deserved. But I think he does deserve a whole lot of credit.
Steve Jobs was a piece of shit human being who contributed nothing to technology.
That said, he was a hell of a skilled bullshitter/marketer. Most people fucking looooove to be bullshitted, and Americans more than most.
It’s why we elect virtually no wonks/technocrats, even though thats who we should elect almost exclusively. We’d rather some snake oil motherfucker sell us on magical lies while telling us we’re pretty.
I’ve never complimented, or defended Steve Jobs before, because he was a grade A piece of shit…but, Steve Jobs transformed technology precisely because he was a phenomenal salesman, with a great eye for technical talent.
Just because he wasn’t an engineer, doesn’t change the fact that he forged Apple into what it became, and that absolutely contributed to modern technology - for better, and worse.
Just because he wasn’t an engineer, doesn’t change the fact that he forged Apple into what it became,
I think the big complaint about Jobs is not the lack of engineering skills, but that he got where he did through deception, taking advantage of people, and often treating folks like garbage. Many of us view him as unworthy of celebrating, because the ends don’t justify the means.
(There’s also the fact that what Apple became was not all good, but perhaps that’s a separate discussion.)
I think marketers should get to take credit for ad campaigns they create, and engineers should get to take credit for technology they create.
Capitalists just want to take the credit for what others do. Societal leeches. I don’t buy into their false narrative that providing the means of production they hoard out of greed means they deserve most to all of the credit for what they permit talented people to engineer and produce by the swear of their brow and the migraines of their solutions.
We should be rewarding the Teslas of the world for what they invent, and punishing the Edisons that would claim other’s inventions as their own. But we suck, so we won’t.
Moving goalpost?
You said he didn’t contribute to technology, so I pointed out that he’s responsible for Apple becoming what it became, which itself transformed technology.
Now, you’re saying he shouldn’t get technical credit for…making the iPhone?
Okay…I never said he should…but it you want to go down that path, he was very hands-on with in the design processes for two of their most pivotal products: the iMac and iPod.
Again, he was a grade-A douche bag, who died a fucking hilariously stupid death, but that doesn’t erase, or override his impact.
If you want to congratulate his corpse for what he didn’t engineer or design, go ahead.
It has nothing to do with congratulating.
You made a false statement, and then moved the goalpost (motte and bailey) when I pointed it out.
Simple as that.
I think the argument is that the motivations society allowed him under capitalism are what drew him to do what he did, not just that he was some brilliant asshole but that he wanted to own the work those beneath him had done.
Lots of us who have spent our lives being told “yeahuh but that’s how it’s supposed to work!” probably have a hard time grappling the concept that just because it turns out good sometimes doesn’t mean we can’t do better.
So to the original point of the rebuttal - we’re lucky it only turned out like it did, and not way way worse (and some other high-on-capital folks have been busy proving that lately…)
Steve Jobs could sell his turds to the Apple fanboys, and they would eat it up.
Doesn’t mean what he sold is some culinary dish or he a master chef. Just that he could sell them whatever he wants, no matter what it was. Whether it was technology or not.
The irony here is that you’re a cliche anti-Apple fanboy, and I don’t even use Apple products.
So blinded by your dork rage, that you missed the entire point of this little comment thread.
What’s even funnier, is that you also unintentionally proved mine.
After listening to the recent Behind the Bastards episode on him, yeah absolutely. It’s amazing his legacy isn’t judged more harshly.
He’s one of those people who died at the right time to preserve their own legacies, before public reckonings for non illegal bad behavior became common.
Harvey Dent: You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself to become the villain.
Steve Jobs: Bet.
I guess he died more or less pre-Twitter, so that’s something. He’d have a different legacy otherwise.
I work in tech and specialize in Apple hardware. I get really sick of industry folks talking about Jobs as being inspiring and other nonsense. No, he was an asshole and we should not celebrate him.
It’s amazing his legacy isn’t judged more harshly.
Have you read the rest of this thread?
These comments aren’t reflective of mainstream views or silicon valley views where people aspire to be like Jobs. They’re not even representative of the linked article.
It’s also partially because any decent engineer/technocrat both lacks sufficient charisma and cash flow, and more importantly looks at public service and says “there’s no reliable way I can keep my morals and make a difference there.” As an engineer myself, I can’t imagine dealing with the general public. Choosing the correct, logical path will never win over people who put opinions and faith/feelings over reasoning and science. We’ve seen it time and time again and I’m not going to bang my head against that wall.
Instead I help friends and family, contribute to open source and projects I believe in and be the change I want to see in the world. Trying to do that as an elected official would foster insanity and pushback from those who don’t care and only want their side to win, regardless of the overall outcome.
Also: yes SJ was a POS, but he was a POS with charisma, a plan, and smart enough to surround himself with people who could make his ideas happen… and then micromanage them.
wonks/technocrats
…Knowledge Fight-like typing detected?
I had the same thought!
who contributed nothing to technology.
If it wasn’t for jobs Wozniak would still be putting breadboards together in his garage. We have no idea what the personal computer ecosystem would have looked like without the apple 2. He gets a lot more credit than he deserves sometimes but the idea that he contributed nothing is absurd. If he had contributed nothing you wouldn’t know his name.
People need to stop holding Jobs up as some deity of tech. He was a marketing and hype man that was in the right place at the right time and knew how to take advantage of that luck. Nothing more, nothing less. It is equally possible his leadership style would have squandered the opportunities Apple has had since his death had it been him and not Cook in charge.
By any metric other than “line must always go up” Apple is doing just fine.
“Oh no, they haven’t found another multi hundred billion dollar product to release since the iPhone, even though there are no signs that the iPhone won’t continue to be a very profitable business for years and years to come…better go dig up Steve jobs, shove a stick up his back, magic his corpse back to life, and beg him to save the shareholders profit margins”, the horror.
To be fair, we saw formerly what Apple without jobs did, it was a failure. So one might wonder when the new Apple might run out. The catch being that the iPhone, app store, and iTunes are all indefinite money machines, except maybe iPhone one day. So they had a steak of ever increasingly wildly successful products that culminated in the iPhone and then no mind blowing follow-up, but they don’t need one. Folks may like the narrative that Jobs death coincided with their last big product category though
We also saw Jobs without Apple, also pretty much a failure.
NeXT was successful at being an application for the position of CEO at apple.
NeXT was a mediocre BSD front end and a few interesting Objective-C libraries. Apple’s board of directors pretty much crawled back to Jobs hat in hand after the disasters of Sculley and Spindler.
He was very much the Elon Musk of his times, and it’s very possible he would have gone down the same route of extremist views and decisions that completely failed because of his egoism.
He died because he didn’t listen to his doctor’s advice. That is somewhat extreme.
He believed in the teachings of a 20th century cultist who said you excreted mucus based on dietary choices, and therefore didn’t have to worry about health or bathing unless you ate poorly. (Stinky dude who also made an 8 yr old cry for eating a cheeseburger).
Wish everyone health but guy was as extreme as it gets in regards to being an asshole. Denied his daughter, settled child support days before taking Apple into the public market, etc.
Had pancreatitis because of his diet. A diet in which he thought would magically avoid creating body odor.
It turned into cancer. He lucked out that it was a rare form of treatable pancreatic cancer with a 90% survival rate 5 years out. Which is abnormal as most forms of pancreatic are essentially a death sentence. Survival rate past 3 years is under 10% for the more common variants.
Stuck to his diet anyway. Ignored his doctors. Died to an illness he had a 90% chance of beating because he knew better.
And to top it all off, it didn’t help his body odour at all. He stank.
Kinda crazy, because we figured out deodorant a while ago.
I see you also listen to Behind The Bastards.
Actually no, I think it’s a well enough known thing though. But for sure he was a right cunt.
Nobody ever said smart people can’t be stupid too.
He also jumped the line to get a liver transplant once he, presumably, decided maybe there’s a chance the diet thing wouldn’t work out.
Died shortly thereafter, wasting a perfectly good liver.
And that 90% is average number, it’s quite possible that with his money that number would be higher…
A diet in which he thought would magically avoid creating body odor.
Those of us who have this problem know that your diet really does affect that. Actually others can sometimes say what we’ve eaten a few hours before.
However, Jobs’ case is kinda extreme, usually eating less sugar and fat and more carbs is kinda sufficient.
Jobs actually believed he didn’t need to take baths though, it was more extreme than just reducing his smell, he legitimately believed he didn’t smell at all.
Well, there’s such thing as nose blindness. If you stink always the same, you don’t feel your own smell. Which is why asocial people become smelly very easily.
Jobs was clearly narcissist, though, so he’d just be in denial anyway.
It is equally possible his leadership style would have squandered the opportunities Apple has had since his death had it been him and not Cook in charge.
Look at NeXT right before Apple ‘bought’ them. They were pretty much on their deathbed. Turns out, marketing $10,000 workstations to college students isn’t such a smart idea.
Maybe Apple will have their Balmer moment but, as much as I would like to see that, I don’t expect it any time soon.
The Apple Car was the hint the wheels fell off, because it was out of scope for Apple’s focus. And the Vision Pro is the next biggest one, because Steve haaaaaaated wearable computing.
Meh, when you have a chip that powerful and that energy efficient, trying something in wearable computing is a no brainer imo.
I still don’t know who wants wearable tech. Just using my phone can be painful at times. Notifications after notifications. Enable cookies, mark as read that work email, deal with the emoji in the group chat, ignore that spam call voicemail, ignore that update, dismiss that missed alarm, read the notification from my kid’s school that the PTO meeting was moved…
Now imagine you can’t just put it down. It is right there screaming for your attention. Just emails alone probably eat 10% or more of my working day. The very last thing I want is the screaming notifications to be on face in my field of vision.
Plus that thing is going to smell like ass in a month.
Trying, not releasing
Wearable computing does not have to be a VR device, and it can be anything with a sensor, a cpu, gpu and networking features. Apple has at least one succesful wearable computing device, the apple watch. I am not touching vr anyway, it look pointless in nature and gives simulation sickness.
he also hated non-skeuomorphic design, and yet here we are for the better in a world where we’ve moved on from that dated concept
just because he didn’t like something doesn’t make it wrong for apple to pursue
It only seems dated because everyone had this shitty flat interface crazy in the early to mid 2010s. Nowadays new, somewhat flat, but also skeuomorphic design languages like Fluent and Material 3 are getting attention
personally, i can’t stand either fluent or material either - the modern components and design language i keep coming back to is ant.design
anything skeuomorphic is just a huge waste of space - they add so much detail to the screen that has no function other than signaling “real world” application
WASTE OF SPACE? skeuomorphic designs were absolutely packed with information, nowadays we have shitty interfaces with almost no information (because the silicon valley arts graduates think people are too dumb to comprehend data) and lots of shitty pure white/pure black no gradient blank space.
You can criticize skeuomorphic design for lots of things but lack of information density ain’t one
Take a look at Apple stock over the last 12 years the company is worth literally 10x what it was worth when Jobs died. What a dumb framing.
Boeing’s stock kept rising in the last 10 years, because they were sacrificing what they should be doing for shareholder value. Stock price alone is not a good metric for companies.
I hate how people point towards profit and claim that is an argument a company is successful.
It is easy to make a lot of money when exploiting workers, customers and all the people of the countries you evade taxes in.
It is like claiming drug barons, mafia bosses and human traffickers are successful. Successful in evading the law maybe.
His notebook finally empty?
His notebook empty. Cook, when the infinite loop fell!
Now there is a reference I haven’t seen in a looong time. Thank you!
Wozniak, with Jobs at Atari - tamarian for getting taken advantage of in business
Just nothing but pages of “exploit and abuse engineers”
I never understood the Steve Jobs worship. We knew he was a shithead bully long before he died
Behind the Bastards just did a great series on him.
I’d never really understood how he could have killed himself with his fruitarian nonsense until I listened, but once you get the pattern of behavior all laid out, well.
RIP, bozo.
I’m on the last part of. Some people do not know the depths of how much of a basic garbage human being he was.
Yeah but in a person meetings are at an all time high and anonymous sticks of deoderant being left on peoples’ desks is at an all time low.
The cracks have been visible for a very long time, most fanboys don’t want to see them though.
The cracks in this case are really that governments will no longer support the model that Apple created.
The cracks have been visible on just about every teen girl’s iphone screen.
Cracks? Cracks! These are not cracks, these are features of our product. Their features of our business! It’s what differentiates us from the fractured Windows and Android communities. You want these crac…err features, you need them because it makes our products better.
/s
Lol, the crack appeared as soon after his death. Steve Jobs : no ipad air, no dividend for the share holders.
Guess what been announced in the months following his death.
This article is garbage. The only thing that Steve Jobs did was have ideas and enough narcissism to force them on other people. Engineers and designers far smarter than he did the actual work.
To be fair, he also had an eye for good product design. Not the skills to implement it but the ability to see whether a design is good.
Of course he expressed this skill by yelling at his engineers and designers. A lot. Because he was an asshole.
Steve Jobs was an awful person, the brand was already cracked
“starting to”
Lol
To be honest my old 2 gen iPad started showing cracks several years ago…
Do you mean your second generation iPad or your iPad that is 2 generations old?
Well kinda both. Got it used from my brother and I think it was the second gen made. It’s dead since a few years tho. The battery died.
Yeah bruh Tim Apple seems to be holding his own.
