Vaccines can be delivered through the skin using ultrasound. This method doesn’t damage the skin and eliminates the need for painful needles. To create a needle-free vaccine, Darcy Dunn-Lawless at the University of Oxford and his colleagues mixed vaccine molecules with tiny, cup-shaped proteins. They then applied liquid mixture to the skin of mice and exposed it to ultrasound – like that used for sonograms – for about a minute and a half.
The mRNA shots are very sensitive. I’m not allowed to shake them prior to administration, only swirl gently. I feel like this tech will damage them no?
Im sure they’d have to develop something that would be compatible. It’s in the early stages, but it looks like a cool idea even if it isn’t practical for every application.
I think that’s the basic premise of the Star Trek hypospray. Pressure pushing in medicine rather than a needle.
A lot slower, though. Article says it takes a minute and a half.
It takes my kid half an hour of screaming and throwing a public fit just to get within two miles of a needle, so I’ll take it.
Fair enough.
Fwiw, my kid who was like that still hates needles, she just has better ways of coping now. The other kid likes to watch it go in, doesn’t bother her a bit.
Both get an ice cream cone on the way home.
Of course being clenched up with fear makes it more painful too, so at some point not in the middle of the screaming, make sure they know to try to relax that arm muscle even if the rest of their body is rigid with fear. And to remember it’s going to take maybe 10 seconds so don’t pull away. (It will take less, but kids count fast)
It’s too bad we can’t let them do it themselves, it might make it easier.
Also tell the person administering it to do it slowly. In my experience, most of the pain was from them doing it too fast. Something about the fluid stretching the muscle in painful ways before it can spread out, or something.
That tracks with my experience. I’m shot-tolerant, so I have the calmness to observe. Of course, some are also just inherently more irritating/painful than others, and there’s different volumes of liquid as well.
For instance, if you’re shot-averse, get Pfizer Covid rather than Moderna Covid. It’s ⅓ of the size/dose.
Also consider the people who have needle phobias. My heart starts to race before getting a vaccine. If I have to give a blood sample I will faint.
I’m getting woozy talking about this.
That’s weird. My heartrate and blood pressure go down before getting a shot.
Then I go down, and feel like death for a day and like I’m in rehab for a week.
Funny thing, I’m not really getting woozy talking about it (a little, but more sympathetic memory of it).
That’s more like a jet injector, which we’ve already had for a while.
Actual hyposprays have been around since the 60’s. They are, by all account, quite painful and ironically not very hygienic.
Jet_injector
Fallout is a documentary series.
My favorite anecdote, though not necessarily mine, about jet inoculation comes from the army. They had long lines of men to immunize and little time to do it. Walk up, hold still, hear the click, feel the water pierce you, walk away sore. However, if anyone moved even slightly during the process, the needle of water becomes a knife, slicing their shoulder open. It was not a well thought out mechanism.
Concerns
- Splash-back
- Fluid suck-back
- Retrograde flow
Who thought this was a good idea?
The 60s. They weren’t all there back then
Antivaxxers now pro-abortion to avoid forced ultrasound vaccinations.
As interesting as that would be to happen, in reality, there’s just going to be a bunch more people going without pre natal care.
Which is going to be most red states in the next decade. Great time to be in the little coffin business though.
Why are democrats winning? The republican voter base makes decisions that directly affects their health in a negative way.
Hey Mr Darwin!
Until they run out of land that’s not private property. I think they’ll use mass graves first, then just to bury the bones and teeth that don’t burn.
I fervently wish I’d skipped this thread.
Ultrasound AKA 5G mind waves.
Gosh, I’m sure they’ll latch on to that one.
Oh man they’re pushing vaccines into us remotely, I knew it!
Neat. I wonder if my grandchildren will see that technology in use, because I doubt it’ll happen in my lifetime.
They’re more likely to have “ports” installed. I mean, if people are already lining up to have chips put in their brains…
This is more unsettling than a needle to me.
What do you think about jet injectors?
a narrow, high-pressure stream of liquid penetrates the outermost layer of the skin to deliver medication to targeted underlying tissues
This is what I was thinking when reading the title. That one supposedly was cool, because there was no needle, never seen one in action but I presume there also was no bleeding.
Yet we don’t see them used today, apparently the biggest reason was that there was a splashback and retrograde follow and then patient’s blood could end up contaminating the nozzle, so basically it was like using the same needle on multiple patients.
They’re not cool. They’re fast and good for giving lots of shots in a situation where you need to get a lot of people in a hurry - especially if you’re giving multiple vaccinations at the same time.
I got one of those used on me in basic training - a place where you need to vaccinate a few thousand people in about 30 minutes. Each one could do 4 shots at a time, and they had them in multiple configurations so you could get up to 4 in each arm for each “injection” station. We stepped through the line, and you got whatever shots you were missing in your records.
It hurts, like you could imagine a high pressure power washer with a needle-point burst with 4 heads blasting vaccines in your arms. It works, in the machine-like way the military works, and it is highly effective for mass vaccinations. So, I guess it makes it cool, but also it sucks like you’d expect 4-30 vaccines at once would suck.
What do you think about jet injectors?
That one supposedly was cool
They’re not cool.
What a wild ride. 😏
Grandpa told me about a guy in basic that jerked when they shot it, absolutely tore open his arm.
Fuck that, give me the needle. And I fucking hate needles.
I’m right there with you.
It’s how I got some vaccines in gradeschool. To the underside of my upper arm, the fatty bit. Hurt like fuck.
I think no. I don’t like needles either, but I’ll deal with those first.
History proves we do the cheapest, easiest, and fastest. So allow me to shit all over this idea…
- This is slow at 1.5 mins vs a needle takes about 5 secs.
- Takes skill to operate an ultrasound machine and probably training to get a consistent dose vs pull needle to this line and jab in arm to know you got it all in there.
- Every Rite Aid and CVS would need an ultrasound machine vs here are these cheap disposable needles that require no power or maintenance.
Sure they might develop it faster or make a new more portable thing. But that’s going to take a long long time when no one gives a shit to invest money in a new thing when needles work.
I think it depends. I went to an ER once that threw me into a wheelchair when the world was spinning post-blood-draw and dropped me off in the hall saying “You’ll be fine!”. That hospital will never get an Ultrasound injector.
When I got my first COVID vax, however, I took up 20 minutes of the time of 2 on-call doctors and a nurse because my passing out often resembles a seizure. And then I took up one of their very few “just in case” beds for close to 90 minutes. Someone else with a problem with needles waiting for a vax had to wait for the bed to open up. They’d have killed to have said ultrasound injector for people like me.
No one is suggesting this be put in practice in its current form, that would be insane. That said, this is a good first step for alternative forms of vaccination. “First step” being the important part.
I’d like to be an optimist when it comes to things like this, some people really really can’t stand needles and something like this would be great for them people. I hope it develops further.
As with all new inventions/procedures, this is just the first step. The process will become faster and more efficient in the future.
In my opinion, this is a great first step towards a Star Trek-like hypospray.
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Might be useful for those people whose blood doesn’t clot. Though I don’t know if a small syringe needle is even an issue for them anyway
Why can’t we get intranasal vaccines?
I heard an ad for people scared of dentists - they were offering to put people under.
[More] dangerous and expensive, but better than skipping it altogether.
Gotta be a market for hyper-hypodermic-phobic folks. Even if you & I stick with the five second jab.
There’s more to full sedation than just “scared of dentists”, but it’s a start. Anyone who needs substantial work can get it done in 1 day on full sedation instead of a dozen shorter sessions. yes, “needs substantial work” often relates to “scares of dentists” (or relates to “was too damn poor for dentists”)
And I’m with you on hyper-hypodermic-phobia thing. People don’t realize that “fear of needles” does not manifest as a phobia, but as an acute body response. Getting a shot ruins me for a week, and often involves a doctor’s time because my vasovagal symptoms tend to need a little more expert observation. About 1/3 of the time I stop breathing for a short time. I’ve never needed life-saving measures, but they need to make sure that’s the case (lol).
So for doctor’s offices, it could easily become savings for them because of people who have responses to needles.
- 1.5min really isn’t that long compared to the procedures just to process insurance, identity, etc. Retrieving needles, etc. This only needs the topical vaccine, an ultrasound machine, and a wipe for the machine.
- When this goes mainstream it’ll be a little device with cutout so you can apply it flawlessly to the upper arm. Ultrasounds need training to get readable data, but probably a LOT less just to apply ultrasound to an area.
- Needles will still be king anywhere in the developing world. It’ll be more expensive initially, but with the mass production the price will go down. And there will be small cost savings to not having to deal with sharps and biohazards as often.
A machine that produces ultrasonic waves is not that complex. It’s the sensors and qualified technician to read and capture the scans that’s expensive.
Plus have you ever had to physically restrain your child through a needle shot? You said “easiest” and that shit ain’t easy.
You seem to be the only commenter here who recognizes that this would be amazing for pediatric patients - who coincidentally receive way more vaccines than adults.
We are one step closer to hypo sprays from Star Trek. I don’t like needles so this will be really neat to see in mass adoption.
Hyposprays already were invented, mass produced, used as standard in the military for several years, and abandoned because they weren’t as hygienic as needles.
Anything that pushes through the skin into the blood pushes pathogens in too. Statistically, needles were safer so hyposprays were abandoned.
Presumably the version they use in Star Trek avoids that problem somehow, so it’s still a thing that would need to be invented.
The doctors are constantly jabbing people one right after another and often through the uniform…I’d love to see the explanation in universe for that
Maybe their uniforms are self-sterilizing.
Medicine is improved so everyone has super immunity in the future. So it’s not that the hypo isn’t pushing dirt into their veins, it’s that they don’t care.
It’s really good that the media really managed to communicate to people that antivaxers are the enemy of everyone now.
When I think of an antivaxer, I imagine it’s some creature that we don’t normally see, because they are so ugly, stupid and insane that they wouldn’t be able to function in society without a lot of help getting their pants on in the morning.
I mean, imagine going against the specific advice of all those experts and NOT taking the vaccine?? That’s like putting a gun to the head of grandma who just wants to live her last few days in happiness, and then that stupid antivaxer just kills her! So evil.
I’m thankful we live in a society where we now can be confident what is true, because it’s very clearly being communicated to all of us, all the time. Who can miss that?? It’s like everywhere! Stupid antivaxers, hope they all die off like the poison on society they all are.
Where does it say anything about antivaxxers?
The thread comments. :)
Not sure how to interpret your comment. Is it being sarcastic?
Antivaxxers are indeed fucking stupid pieces of shit. It isn’t some propaganda by the media. It’s science / logic.
Of course not. We have science, and there should be no reason to question that anymore, now that we know what the truth is. It took us a long time to get here too. But now we know.
BREAKING NEWS: Republicans leave prenatal care industry in shambles
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Preaching to the choir, yes, but you’re fine lol
Honestly just wasn’t thinking when I posted that. Head empty
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Sweet, now they can charge me $1k for a shot and not use a needle.
Last time I got an ultrasound the hospital charged me $2k. Wanted to confirm nothing was wrong with my kidneys. Turns out I was all good, but now I have an expensive bill to deal with…
$2k is largely the doctors time for the procedure, plus interpretation (sometimes another doctor entirely, particularly when multiple opinions are warranted).
Of course, the equipment probably isn’t cheap either
Edit - damn. Looks like I was very wrong on this one!
90-95% of imaging cost is the technical fee. An ultrasound is usually 0.5 to 1.0 RVUs roughly. So let’s say 1. The RVU rate for radiologists right now is around $45-60 an RVU. So of the $2k for the ultrasound, a Radiologist will make about $50 of it.
In my recent experience, that wasn’t the case. Ultrasound at the ER was $370 for the contracted radiologist. And a whipping $1700 for a 5 minute use of the machine.
man a little vaccine needle is the least painful shot, i didn’t even feel the last 5 i got until the next day
Intramuscular always caused me soreness, except maybe once. I don’t know what that nurse did differently, I felt the needle sink in, and it hurt; but there was near-zero residual soreness.
Yeahhhhhhhhh there is some value here
Signed,
A parent of two children under 5
Hyposprays are finally here!!!
Finally? They were used back in the 1970s. There were issues with them getting contaminated during use, so disposable needles became the norm.
Sitting for a minute and a half, not including prep and cleanup, or just getting stabbed a little. shrug
Edit: To save the next half dozen people exclaiming “needles!” the trouble. I would refine my point to, “great to have the option but I imagine it as being more of a fallback than the beginning of a new era”.
I’ll take it over having a sore arm for a day or two.
Getting a shot isn’t a big deal, but neither is sitting for five minutes.
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Maybe one way of looking at it might be : this would be safe enough you could trust people to self-administer, and you could therefore take the professional with the needle out of the equation.
90 seconds of one person’s time has got to be better than the quick jab by two people, no?
I don’t think any amount of de-specializing would be enough to trust the ignorant and/or malicious masses could or would self-administer adequately.
You’re right. Can’t just post them to folks and expect 100% uptake. It might widen the possibilities of more people getting more vaccines, though. In my books, this can only be a good thing.
Depending on how specific the injection needs to be, there are a number of scenarios in which people can self-administer injections. So, ignoring people who physically can’t self-administer, it isn’t that dramatic a change.
I can’t help but feel that the professional would be even more necessary to administer this correctly and not just waste a treatment/dose doing it wrong, whilst under the illusion that you did it right. Along with the specialised equipment needed for it in the first place. Needles and doses at least are pretty easily self-contained and if it is suitable for self application just “pointy end goes in fat bit of you”.
Naturally it’s early days, so it’ll be fascinating to see how this develops.
I agree! Auto injectors aren’t cheap compared to ye olde trusty ampule and syringe, and this might push the costs towards the higher end again. I can see a kids-and-the-latex-allergic edge case scenario.
Can’t wait to see what develops 😄
It’s not just the time we’ve saved here. Think of people on insulin that have to take shots multiple times a day.
The medical implications of this are massive it is absolutely a game changer.
If it ever comes into fruition.
We’ll have to wait and see how this impacts anything that needs to be injected deeper than skin level, which is why the focus is on vaccines.
It’s certainly less time effective if administering vaccines to large populations at once, but the increased antibody generation could absolutely make it worth it. Don’t know much about these things, but could mean the difference between two jabs and one 1.5 minute appointment.
Needle phobias are extremely common, and the thing about phobias is that you’re fully aware that the fear isn’t coming from a rational place, which is part of what makes them so frustrating to deal with.
the thing about phobias is that you’re fully aware that the fear isn’t coming from a rational place
Lol yeah when I get vaccinated the anxiety fully fades the moment the needle enters my arm.
Also stops a lot of medical waste
The needle or the ultrasound, seems like the prick might be less waste
How?
I don’t think there would be any need to dispose of any part of the ultrasound system; perhaps a disposable paper or plastic cover to speed up cleaning between patients. Meanwhile the needles are single use and must be disposed of properly since they are a bio-hazard. Can’t really see how a needle could possibly compete on the waste side of things.
Yeah, maybe he was talking about something else because it’s hard to see what would be worse than used needles.
For people like me who go down for a half hour and feel like a train wreck for 8 hours when they get stabbed a little, I’ll take a 1.5min one.
If you told me I needed to run on a treadmill for an hour while the ultrasound worked, I’d STILL take it over getting stabbed a little.
Surely that’s the vaccine, not the needle?
Happens for blood draws as well, even small quantities. Happens if someone pokes me with a lidocaine. It’s a vasovagal reaction where my body “overreacts to certain triggers”. My blood pressure and heartrate plummet (to scary low levels. I’ve freaked out nurses on a couple of occasions). It causes me to feint in a comically dramatic way because the bloodflow to my brain gets too low. To be even more fun, I sometimes exhibit false “seizure” symptoms when I’m down, tightening up all my muscles at once and stopping breathing. During my first COVID vaccine, my breathing stopped for almost a minute, which is why 2 doctors were overseeing me when I came to. My wife explaining the situation is the only reason I didn’t end up in an ambulance. You shoulda seen the nurse, she looked as pale as I did!
In theory, this could kill me, and there are confirmed ultra-rare cases of people dying from vasovagal syncope. In practice, I’m far more likely to die of a car accident on the way home (with my wife driving me because I’m in no state to drive after that). So long as a competent medical professional is watching me, I’m basically completely safe. But absolutely miserable.
Honestly, it makes me feel like I’m some kind of drama queen. But it’s entirely made up of unconscious responses in my body.
And the weird thing is that it’s not thinking about needles. It’s my body’s reaction to the feeling of a needle entering it. That sad little “prick” feeling that is maybe a 1 out of 10 on the pain scale? I have no idea if it’s “trickable” because I have absolutely no problem digging out a splinter with a knife. I keep wanting to find out if getting a tattoo would trigger that reaction or not. I just want to get a tattoo anyway lol.
Huh, I have never heard of such a thing! Sounds very annoying to say the least
It fucking sucks, more because a lot of providers don’t (or didn’t. They’ve been getting better) take seriously. They’d treat you like a baby or a hypochondriac, right up until you scare them half to death by WHAT YOU SAID WOULD HAPPEN happening.
The stopping-breathing thing is super-rare, so even people expecting that “complely calm-seeming patient” pass-out are shocked when that same unconscious patient starts holding their breath and shaking.
That sure sounds annoying. I hope being able to plan ahead for the occasional jab makes it not much of a real issue in your life.
Does it happen for accidental/“natural” pokes? You mentioned the splinter thing, but if you had a thorn, cactus needle, or even a piece of glass stuck in your skin and pulled it out, would you do alright?
I hope being able to plan ahead for the occasional jab makes it not much of a real issue in your life.
Basically that. I schedule a day off if I need a jab for any reason, and work from home anyway when I’m miserable the next several days.
Does it happen for accidental/“natural” pokes? You mentioned the splinter thing, but if you had a thorn, cactus needle, or even a piece of glass stuck in your skin and pulled it out, would you do alright?
All of those are fine. And unlike a lot of people with my issue, blood doesn’t bother me in the least. Once in a great while I’ve gotten a mild version of that from an insect bite, but the feeling is just completely different.
Oddly, I think if a needle hurt more and did some tearing, it wouldn’t bother me so much.
But you’re asking some really thought-provoking questions. I have a lot of food-related texture issues and while this is COMPLETELY different, I’m suddenly wondering if it’s a little more similar than I thought. I do believe there’s a psychological component to it; I haven’t been able to test, but if I were surprised with a needle jab outside of a medical setting, I have no idea if it would happen to me or not.
What I did discover is that my blood pressure doesn’t rise and my heartbeat doesn’t go up in “prep”. I don’t seem to have a stress-rise effect for it to be stress-plummet related. I’m not asking anyone to surprise me with a shot, but I really do wonder what would happen.
Wow. That sucks. Wishing the best for you.
Honestly, I wouldn’t trade it for the medical conditions of some of my family and friends. It sucks, and makes me hate doctors, but it won’t kill me.
I mean, I’d take this over diabetes and/or asthma shrug
Have you tried EMLA?
… genuinely I’ve never been offered (even had to google EMLA)
But now that you mention it, I’ve never had this particular issue from novicaine at the dentist. And they always use a topical.
Next time I need a shot/blood, I’ll see if they’re willing to try that! Since it really does seem to be about the poke itself, something that changes the feeling might be exactly what works.
Just source it yourself, it’s over the counter in the UK and unlikely to be difficult elsewhere. Apply thirty mins beforehand with the patch over, make sure you put it where the injection will go of course… remove when ready, wipe the cream away and voila, no feeling. The dentist uses a spray anaesthetic before needles; despite my phobia, I don’t really mind gum injections, very weird.
If humans weren’t meant to stabbed then we wouldn’t be so soft and penetrable.
I do take your point though.
Lol, it’s true. But if we were meant to be stabbed we wouldn’t have a completely unique dangerous (occasionally it kills people) reaction to it that doesn’t resemble most phobias.
Some people are afraid of the needle
I can’t wait to hear the crazy conspiracies about this one.
