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It’s just another flavour of Chromium though isn’t it?
Much more UI customization and a shitton of power user stuff too
Still chromium, no thanks.
Fair, site compatibility is needed for my work so I unfortunately must use chromium
Quit the job, work in Firefox only environments, send the message /s
I’ve heard multiple people say this as the reason for not using Firefox, but I can’t remember if I ever had sites not working on FF. Does it happen often for you?
My power got shut off one day before December last year. I thought the bills were all being paid cause I received no notice of delinquency. Turns out, my electric company purged my account.
When I tried to make a new account, going through multiple attempts where the only thing that worked right was their shitty captcha (select all motorcycles bullshit), I finally had to call them. Turns out, soon as I switched to a chromium browser, it allowed me to complete the registration.
I told the rep on the phone, a nice lady who was as shocked as I was that Firefox wasn’t allowing registration to complete, to convey to their IT team that a) removing the accounts of paying customers is a really awful policy (who logs into their power companies site after setting up auto pay?) and b) that catering to a single line of browser was not bad practice. She said she’d pass it on.
I don’t think she passed it on.
Not often, but it does happen enough times that I have Chrome installed as a backup in case something doesn’t work. It’s usually the in-house websites (for instance, the ones made for tracking timesheets) that break on Firefox. Not all of them break, of course, but if you’re required to submit a form via a particular in-house website and it doesn’t load on Firefox, then you’re kind of forced to have a backup browser at minimum.
It doesn’t happen often enough that I would say that using Firefox is problematic, but if you combine that with people’s inherent aversion to change, you can start to see why people are so resistant to even trying Firefox. Unfortunately, it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy, since the less people use Firefox, the less the web development teams at these companies would be incentivized to make sure their website works on Firefox
Yeah unfortunately, things like Apple Business Manager, ezoffice, and our KVM software refuse to work on non chromium browsers, no matter how many user agent spoofing extensions I install
Happened to me during an internship, I was really frustrated to install this on my machine.
You can try floorp, it’s Firefox + some of Vivaldi
Yeah
For gecko the best alternative to old opera and Vivaldi I found so far is floorp
I looked it up and it looks great. Currently downloading it to give it a try. I wonder how it compares to LibreWolf though.
Yup
Yep. I daily drive Vivaldi on both macOS and Android.
I love it. The sidebar is a great feature; I stash my extension icons there. The theme is highly customizable; I have mine set to something similar to the Opera dark theme.
I don’t use the email or calendar features. The great thing about Vivaldi is that they provide a ton of power user features, but don’t shove it in your face. It’s super easy to turn off the things you don’t want and to turn on the things you do want.
I do use UBO, but they also have a builtin ad blocker if you want to use that instead.
The settings page is very extensive. Tons of customization. True to the Opera legacy!
The sidebar is a great feature; I stash my extension icons there.
That’s amazing, I didn’t know you could do that. I’ve been using Vivaldi since the alpha days and I had no clue you could drag the extensions there.
It’s a rebranded chromium with some extra bloat. Just like his older brother Chinese Chromium, Opera, and their edgy cousin, Microsoft Chromium. All following the example of Papa Chrome.
Don’t forget about their outdated-hIpster friend, Brave Chromium.
Acting like all these forks are just chrome is really disingenuous and isn’t helping the conversation at all.
Vivaldi has the best tab management ever.
That’s what I thought until I installed Firefox with Sidebery and oh man, that’s another level. It required quite a bit of configuration make it really fit my needs, but when you configure it, it’s incredible.
Thanks for telling me about sidebery!
Not to mention it has the best ad and tracker blocking I’ve seen without extensions, I’ve never used UBO or anything and still have zero issues on YouTube with ads or performance problems.
Yeah yeah I know, it’s still based on chromium, but until Firefox gets a suitable alternative to tab stacking and the side bar (ive already tried all of the solutions people claim is good enough or “the same” and find them all lacking) ill stick with V.
Side bar was what I miss most from GX when I tried it.
I loved some of the functionality Vivaldi adds (split tabs, tab groups, etc) but I couldn’t take the instability that came with it. That thing crashed more times in the 6 months I used it than Firefox or Chrome ever have for me total I swear to god.
Somewhat ditto, though for me it was less actual crashes and more generically bad performance while the rest of the system chugged along fine.
I love Vivaldi but it definitely chugs with the stupid amount of hibernated tabs I’ve got. The new sessions thing helped alleviate that a bit since I can save a window state and close it but I definitely run into some kind of memory leak with it. (I have had like 1k+ hibernated tabs open, so not entirely unexpected that it runs into issues but I’d still think if they’re hibernated they should just be stubbed out tabs in memory until clicking one turns it into a full browser process. Idk)
I use Vivaldi on macOS and Android.
I’ve never had stability issues.
the ad blocking on its own is just amazing, blocks some trackers that even UBO misses sometimes, rarely, but does happen.
Huge fan of Vivaldi for both pc and mobile!
Isn’t Vivaldi also shady?
Maybe a tiny bit unstable and proprietary, but I don’t think they have had any controversies or shady action.
Last I looked, I couldn’t find a Linux version of Vivaldi. Which is strange as I’m pretty sure their beta releases did. Been a hot minute since I’ve looked again. Other than being chromium based, I liked what I seen. It’s almost like kde developed it with its staggering feature set lol.
It’s available for Linux.
They’re available in a lot of standard repos, but you can find an executable on their site as well.
Recently a flatpack as well
I keep revisiting Vivaldi once every few months, and get reminded of why I uninstall it within minutes. They remove the option of changing DNS servers from the configuration UI and moved it into flags. I have absolutely no idea why they do that, and its a philosophy I vehemently disagree with.
Holy shit.
I thought this was just going to be a matter of poor security implementation or crappy feature sets.
Turns out they converted the company into a loan shark operation owned by Chinese ad companies
when the Opera browser continued losing users (due to competition from Google and Apple), the company shifted gears to building mobile apps that provided predatory short-term loans. The interest rates on those loans ranged from 365-876% per year, and loan terms from 7-29 days.
This behavior is just beyond batshit. Before anyone decides tl;dr, the article is well worth a read.
I had a hunch that Opera was circling the drain when I started seeing them sponsor Youtubers. A general rule of thumb is that no company that has anything worth a shit devolves to sponsoring Youtube videos. I had no idea about the predatory loans thing, or the crypto scam chasing thing, or the ripping off ChatGPT thing…
Back here in reality, there is no reason anyone should be using any other browser than Firefox. There is one organization left in this arena still devoted to protecting privacy, maintaining open standards, and a fair and open web for all. And it ain’t Google, it ain’t Microsoft, and it ain’t Opera.
And it’s always been Firefox since day one. Out of the ashes of Netscape Navigator rose Firefox and Mozilla have been one of the only bastions of the free and open web ever since. I honestly don’t understand why anyone would use another browser.
Sadly chromium is often the only supported browser for a lot of web apps. Sometimes not even chromium but just chrome in particular. Chrome has basically inherited all the downsides of internet explorer of yesteryear except it doesn’t run like shit yet.
I wonder if it’s really a lack of support and not just a user agent string check for lazy development.
and google sabotaging shit so it only works on their platform.
Like they did with youtube and Edge (before they finally gave in to googles terrorism and switched edge to chrome base)
like they are doing with youtube and adblockers.
Fear of change and effective marketing. Those are the only reasons.
Actually it’s an effective cloud-based password manager that doesn’t rely on local storage or weird plugins or backups.
That’s what keeps me using chrome. I could lose everything in a house fire, pick up any device, log in and have access to all my stuff without any further action on my part, right out of the box.
That’s the only feature I care about, and chrome is the only browser I’ve seen that provides it.
Get me that in firefox, and I’ll switch today.
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I have all that functionality today with FF… Not sure when you last checked, but if you create a Mozilla account and log in to FF you can sync all the same stuff as Chrome does.
Checked it out: apparently I had a mozilla account at one point in time. Hit ‘forgot password’:
Note: When you reset your password, you reset your account. You may lose some of your personal information (including history, bookmarks, and passwords). That’s because we encrypt your data with your password to protect your privacy.
Forgot your password: fuck you.
This is the exact fucking opposite of the behaviour I’d ever want from a password manager.
I think that’s what most people want in a password manager. The only way to have a truly secure pw manager is to encrypt it and failsafe to delete. That way if your identity gets stolen or email compromised, it limits the damage.
Forgot your password: fuck you.
This is the exact fucking opposite of the behaviour I’d ever want from a password manager.
Wait wait wait wait, you’re telling me you want the people who hold your password to be able to view them without your explicit permission (entering a secret that unlocks your vault)? Because that’s what you’re asking for - if they can reset your password and provide you your plaintext passwords, that means they can 1) read your passwords if they chose to and 2) you can be phished and have your account stolen and passwords provided to some rando.
The convenience offered by that “feature” is outweighed by the potential consequences of it existing. Passwords should absolutely be a Trust No One (TNO) solution.
What are you talking about? Firefox has had literally Sync since before Chrome existed.
Firefox Sync initial release: December 21, 2007
Google Chrome intial release: September 2, 2008 (Beta), (1.0) December 11, 2008
A full year, my guy.
You can lose your Google account in the blink of an eye with no recourse, no access to support or anything.
With local and my own backups, I can choose to put them at any location, cloud or local.
I’m confused since Firefox Sync has been letting you sync/backup your passwords, bookmarks and history for a decade or two at this point, and you can even self-host the sync server.
I don’t know the complete FF password manager details (Bitwarden user here) but where does Firefox fall short for you?
Looks like you best get to switching.
That’s great until Google finds that one picture of your child at the pool and immediately deletes your CSAM-harboring filthy account.
SeaMonkey is not dead yet.
I’ll say this. I use chrome and I KNOW I need to switch to Mozilla. It’s just such a pain to switch that I inevitably go back. Maybe this is the wake up call I need.
Cuz Firefox was for a long time just some shiiiiiiit. It was overloaded, blocky, seemed outdated etc., so ie wasn’t any worse. When chrome came, whooo.
Now tho, I am simply still prejudiced against it. And I found Edge suits me ideally so I don’t care for any other browser. Until my adblock stops working, then I’ll run.
I also left Firefox for Chrome many years ago during that time period, but Firefox has been good again for quite some time. They did a big refresh called Quantum several years back and solved most of those issues. Give it a try.
They also solved the “issue” of XULRunner and all associated functionality, not offering anything instead.
I had to move from
conkeror, and now jump between FF and SeaMonkey. The latter lags behind a bit in porting FF functionality.To each his own, I guess.
I do not agree with your generalisation of YouTube sponsorships, but with the rest I absolutely agree with.
Honestly, I read something about Opera being vaguely connected to shady Chinese companies right before I started recommending ppl to switch away from Opera or Opera GX. Glad I stuck to that, looks like my intuition did not fail me.
You, uh, really feel that the likes of Raid: Shadow Legends, Nord VPN, Honey by PayPal, Raycons, and HelloFresh are really making a positive contribution to the world that we can’t do without?
I think there might be a few exceptions, but generally it’s just loot boxes and predatory games.
I mean, what’s the problem with NordVPN? Pretty much every youtuber I respect who does sponsorship promotes it, and I’ve never heard anything bad about it. Generalizing like that is always bad (or well, mostly always, or ironically I would be generalizing).
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there is no reason anyone should be using any other browser than Firefox.
Yeah. And everybody should use the same brand of shoes, drive the same model of car, buy at the same store, eat the same food…
God forbids people having different tastes, opinions and needs.
There is one organization left in this arena still devoted to protecting privacy, maintaining open standards, and a fair and open web for all. And it ain’t Google, it ain’t Microsoft, and it ain’t Opera.
Yeah, and it’s not Mozilla either.
Yeah, and it’s not Mozilla either.
Which one do you think it is, then? Genuinely curious here. I don’t disagree with on most of what you said - I find the simping for Mozilla (and sneering towards chromium) here in Lemmy rather annoying. Mozilla and its browser both have shortcomings as well, and choosing a web browser these days is, as most things in life, choosing the lesser of evils vs. one’s own needs.
Which one do you think it is, then? Genuinely curious here.
I simply don’t assume that an org/com actually exist which is concerned users’ privacy. Mozilla just follows the money, as any other corp.
Protecting my privacy is a task I prefer to delegate to mybrain(.org).
Good. We think alike 👍
Wow. Deleting the app now.
Yeah, I was a huge fan but the moment they changed the engine it was just Chrome in different skin. And later the news that they were bought by a Chinese firm doing shady stuff just confirmed that it was the right decision.
I am sad that they did not open source the engine. Somebody leaked it, but no one serious would touch it for legal reasons.
For me old Opera is an artifact of the bygone era, together with old Skype and Hamachi, when some proprietary software would really work well and even support Linux.
Opera actually even released FreeBSD versions, if I’m not mistaken.
Skype - we all know what.
Hamachi still works =)
It’s been that way for years now.
Yeah the surprise in this thread is surprising to me. I’ve considered Opera to be untrustworthy for years now.
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Opera invested $30 million in the crypto startup ICST that same year, and the startup’s CEO was arrested four days later for financial crimes.
LOL
Well, some years ago the crypto startup was all the heat.
I knew not to use Opera GX as soon as they started sponsoring youtubers. I swear, youtube sponsorships are like anti-ads. 9 times out of 10 they’re doing something sketchy.
When I see a product I already use being promoted by YouTubers in sponsored segments, I immediately question if I should be using it, even if I’d have happily continued had I never seen that sponsorship.
Absolutely true. I remember every YouTuber and their mother shilling out for LastPass a few years back. Now that their reputstion is kind of in the dumps after several “noncritical” hacks I see those same YouTubers shilling out for Dashlane.
It just gets worse if you try to think of any serious sponsorship program by companies that are, to date, trustworthy. There are none because they don’t need them. Word of mouth is good enough for them because the customers they have will stay being customers for a long time. Long enough that they bring in more people just by being happy about the service.
Same with Express/Nord VPN sponsorships. Many people debunked the adverising BS they were spinning about blocking tracking when really it only masked a tiny subset.
As someone who studied infosec, those ads were infuriating. Now I just sponsor block it all because I’m beyond tired of it.
Really like Mullvad for that. They don’t pretend a VPN alone makes you invisible for tracking nor do they pretend it makes your browsing much more secure. They don’t do any BS sales either. You get what you pay for and they are very upfront about what you get (mostly ISP block and region lock bypass).
Haven’t seen a YT sponsorship for them yet either so that’s another plus in my book.
I left LastPass as soon as they started screwing with the free product. Same with Evernote. It’s fine to make a non-free product. But if you make a free product with premium settings you can’t go back and pinch the original user base by taking features away. Those companies *products always fail.
Lol, now that I think of it I had never seen a YouTube ad or sponsor where I would say “this is an ethical and fairly priced product without a catch that I would like to buy”…
I only saw a decent product once, it was Henson razor. Not sure if it’s ethical and fairly priced (those are somewhat hard to tell, imo). If I weren’t using it already, the sponsorship would have deterred from trying 😅
This 100%.
Agreed. I think (and I’m not sponsored lol) that the only product from YouTube that’s actually good is Harry’s razors
I swear, youtube sponsorships are like anti-ads. 9 times out of 10 they’re doing something sketchy.
We’re the minority though.
Opera has always been do-do and always had a do-do engine. Now it’s spyware.
I remember way back in the late 90s or early 2000s, when Opera was commercial, I bought a lifetime license. I don’t remember the specifics but it was basically a way to support them and it was good for all future versions, forever and ever.
I lost the key long ago and the browser is free now anyway. Still wouldn’t use it.
This is unlikely to get the Opera GX fanboys to switch.
Good article though. Fuck that noise.
I don’t know if there are any Opera GX fanboys lol
Why would we need them to switch? Shouldn’t we just leave them be if they’re happy that way?
Firefox’s total global market share is 3.3%. They’re practically losing their influence over the web with numbers that small. So while I’m generally in favor of letting people access the web however they’d like, I’m not naive to the idea of advocating for the little guy.
More importantly, using Firefox (or any of its forks) would mean less people are dependent on Google’s Chromium. With less people depending on Google’s Chromium, the less Google can swing its weight around, imposing its dictum on unsuspecting users.
People still use Opera?
The true Opera fans moved to Vivaldi.
All that is left are those who got caught.
Tried using Vivaldi at one point and I really liked it but it was noticeably slower than both Firefox and chrome even though it’s just another chromium fork. I’ve since switched back to Firefox and haven’t looked back.
It is very features-heavy, but the downside of that is that it takes more resources.
firefox is slower for me lmao, still use it but compared to vivaldi, it uses more cpu and ram somehow
Actually after Opera switched engine from Presto to Blink and become another Chromium-based browser I was a bit lost, and switched between different browsers while never really had that “good connection” I had with Opera, but I eventually switched to Firefox and I don’t really see any other alternative right now. It just works, and supports free and open web.
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I don’t see regular Opera being used, but often Opera GX. Their marketing is so powerful, and those edgy features attract gamers.
In other news: stop using Netscape
Opera is still used by 2.86% of the world, while Netscape probably has less than 100 users.
Wait, is it really just 3%? A lot of people I know use Opera, especially the “Gamer Edition”, more than even default Chrome. I have the same thing with Firefox, where there’s a way higher density in people I know using it than its overall market share, but that bias is to be expected. I’m surprised that it’s a similar case with Opera.
TIL about Hindenburg and the hilarity of their investment strategy.
Also, I really liked that presto engine. The shit was always very dramatically faster than any other browser and I was ok with the odd table or two being mispositioned.
As somebody whose wife just downloaded opera onto the family computer I am horrified.
She’s been complaining that the internet is slow and has blamed it on protonvon, so has resorted to turning the vpn off when using the internet or discord.
I remember after Twin Peaks season 3 came out, showtime was stating left and right how profitable the show was, and then accusations started flying that the show was so profitable because showtime was taking over the browser while people were watching and mining bitcoin in the background without telling people they were doing so.
I trust Opera about a thousand times less just because I had never hears of them until a week or two ago.
I used Opera way back in high school over 2 decades ago. The name has been around for a long time, but I don’t know how related the current company is to back then… The product certainly isn’t related anymore since it’s just another chromium clone.
It’s was sold to a Chinese company a few years ago.
Opera has been in the web browser playing field for a long time at this point, but haven’t been super relevant until the last couple years due to GX
It was somewhat hyped to a degree in the mid 2000s. It had a lot of features other browsers hadn’t and many things just worked better, especially using tabs worked much better with them. They also had a linux version when that was not a common thing. Was kinda sad to see them fall.
Yeah, I remember the IT department at work back then (circa 2006) recommending Opera to me. It had features that are more or less mainstream now, like tab reloading on a timer, and all that while running smoothly than any other browser I’ve used at that time.
Since then, I’ve tried a lot of browsers like Vivaldi and Maxthon, but for some reason or the other, like being bloated, or being taken over by entities I don’t trust, had found a reason to move to a different browser. Currently using LibreWolf, and I hope I won’t have any reason to switch browsers anytime soon.
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I think variety. It’s been 7 years since the show came out. I will look more into it.
God I miss old Opera
Opera died when they killed Presto and pretended they couldn’t make anything like that with blink.
Then the old ones made Vivaldi and proved that was a damned lie.
I’m kind of sad they didn’t choose gecko for Vivaldi.
Currently trying out Floorp after maining Vivaldi for years in preparation for the worst
I can vouch for Floorp being quite good. It also seems to be faster than Waterfox despite having more features built in.
This is the first I’m hearing of floorp, I’ll have to check that out
+1 for floorp, it’s really fast
What’s wrong with firefox?
I used Opera because you could place tabs at the bottom of the window. When Opera became just a Chrome skin, I switched to Firefox because through the Tab Mix Plus extension I could place the tabs to the bottom. When Firefox killed the extension (and many more), I switched to Vivaldi (made by the former Opera team) because it offered tabs on the bottom. Very recently I switched to Waterfox, because @jh34@lemmy.world told me the browser also allows for tabs to be placed at the bottom. What can I say… I’m a bottom kind of guy…
Any particular reason you want your tabs at the bottom of the window? Aesthetics, work flow, grouping?
Just something I’m used to. I have windows tabs on the bottom, so I’d like to have everything in the same place, rather than move the cursor all over the screen. I guess it’s a holdover back from Netscape days when I had several separate windows open, and they all had their own tab on the Windows task bar.
I like bottoms tbh. 😏 I am using iceraven myself for a year pretty good.
Floorp also has that feature, and Vivaldi’s split tabs
Nothing. Ideally you’ll take a privacy hardened fork though, like Fennec or LibreWolf.
For android there’s iceraven and mull.
Isn’t fennec on android?
I never used fennec.
Yes.
privacy hardened
Can you elaborate? I looked at the page for LibreWolf and as best as I can tell they just change some default settings and add Ublock as a pre installed extension.
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I tried using hardened Firefox before moving on to use LibreWolf. Manually hardening Firefox is arguably more powerful than what you’d have with LibreWolf out of the box, but the effort involved in making those changes in the settings and remembering what they are (what they were by default, and what they were changed to) makes it hard to maintain.
makes it hard to maintain.
Do you mean across devices? I don’t think it changes the settings when it updates but i could be wrong.
Back when I tried it, I only had it in one device–which is great, since I dunno if I can do it on more than one device, let alone worry how a hardened Firefox mobile would even look like.
I actually don’t remember if the settings change with updates. But I suppose they don’t (as they don’t either with Librewolf). What I meant with “hard to maintain” is basically keeping note that the hardened Firefox config doesn’t behave like vanilla Firefox (and isn’t expected to). Making some temporary changes to accommodate a “necessary evil” website, you’d have to make note what setting you “temporarily” have to change it to, what the hardened config should be for that setting, and most importantly: remembering to change it back to the hardened config.
So, I guess it’s not really a matter of maintaining the config than being aware of all those config changes (from default). With LibreWolf, I’m just brushing it off as “yeah, that’s how LibreWolf works.”
waterfox is great too
Floorp is also great
The feature I absolutely love on Opera mobile is it will dynamicly wrap text and adjust the page layout to a single column when you zoom in/out. So for pages with small text, you can zoom in to see enlarged text and just scroll down to read - where on all other browsers you have to scroll horizontally back and forth to read the enlarged text.
Opera has been doing this brilliantly for at least 10 years, and I have yet to see this on any other mobile browsers I’ve tried.
Firefox also has a reading mode, firefox’s reading mode hides all the unnecessary element instead of zooming in though, but it does such a great job that I don’t care
Test out reading mode in other Chronium browsers, for me that does the job
Switched to Vivaldi last year and haven’t looked back. Did some side by side with FireFox for a month or two on my phone. I have a cheap 2022 Moto G something or other, running whatever Android it shipped with.
I guess that like a lot of people, I don’t like having apps tracking stuff, but my work requires me to have access to Facebook, Insta, Threads, and the like… so, I just use browser shortcut widgets for them instead (I should quit my job, I know, I know… working on it). Both Firefox and Vivaldi immediately figured out that I wanted to run them in containers so that was great. However, Vivaldi runs all of them so smooth where as Firefox just kind of stumbles around. Some of them would refuse to work some days, just bringing up the web browser container and then crash. Facebook dot com was the worst… there were issues with the UI not showing me the text input bubbles and latency with button presses was terrible… like needing a refresh to show a “like” or even that a notification was read. It was almost unusable. Bizarrely, Outlook was also bad on FireFox… like that’s a fairly bog standard email client and “productivity” site, but on FireFox it would crash more than it worked. Vivaldi handles all of the sites/platforms I need like I’m running the apps.
Maybe it’s something with my cheap ass phone and Motorola’s bloatware, but Firefox crashed and burned more than it worked. I cannot recommend Vivaldi enough.
