Firefox my beloved.
You’re overreacting. Firefox knows their users. I am a huge “stan” for Firefox, but I will delete it like a time traveller if they make it impossible to ignore ads. I will salt the earth and poop on Firefox’s grave and actively avoid it everywhere… However. If I’m wrong, there will be a Next Thing…
Librewolf, my beloved.
❤
This is the first I’ve heard of LibreWolf. Is it compatible with Windows 7? And also, why is it good?
A summary from its site and known technical details:
- no telemetry by default
- includes uBlock Origin
- has sane privacy-respecting defaults
- prepackages arkenfox user.js
- relatively well-maintained fork of Firefox that keeps up with upstream
- No major controversies AFAIK
As for Windows 7, nobody should really need to install Librewolf anyway on such a device. No device running Windows 7 should have access to the internet at this point. If you are asking about compatibility intending this use case, you have bigger problems to worry about than your choice of browser. If you just need to view HTML files graphically, even Internet Explorer or an older firefox ESR will do.
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You really shouldn’t connect windows 7 to the internet.
Looks like it should run on Windows.
Edit: sorry, didn’t read far down enough. It’s only built for Windows 10, but they recommend this?
Main features: … Continued support for NPAPI plugins like Silverlight, Adobe Flash and Java
Picture this in your minds eye: a Windows 7 machine running a browser with still working Flash and Java plugins, connected to the internet in 2024.
what do you see?
i see a flourishing ecosystem of worms, viruses and rootkits, all trying to be the one species to get to be the one who does the most damage to the prey species, the common user.
Sounds like an interesting experience to me. Admittedly I hadn’t looked that far into it. If Win 7 is a must I’d say just go with latest Firefox.
At least link the full article and not just the headline… smh. Here is also the follow-up article with comments from Firefox’s CTO. https://www.heise.de/en/news/Firefox-defends-itself-Everything-done-right-just-poorly-communicated-9802546.html
Not entirely true.
Yeah I’m using Fennec, which doesn’t have that. But as long as it’s a flick of a switch to disable, I don’t really mind. Still a million times better than manifest v3.
If you use a DNS solutions you can block all the telemetry shit. Frankly FF has been phoning home in a lot of undesirable ways for many years even before this, like most browsers.
Firefox is no longer an adversary to Google for the browser market, if it ever was. FF has become a vassal of Google that with its tyranny is dictating the course of the internet, such as WEI that as far as I know it was abandoned at least for now.
🧐
Saying this about any corporation’s product is guaranteed not to age well.
Mmm mmm mmm, Bill Cosby tells me to love my puddin’ pops!
…i feel sleepy…
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Chromium (Google Chrome’s base) is also open source.
And yet, we’re still at a corporation’s mercy as to whether everything Chromium-based gets ruined by Google’s fuck-what-the-users-want policies. Like with Manifest V3. And JXL support. And extensions on mobile.
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Except now you have to maintain a branch that’s missing everything after that release upstream.
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Yeah you can probably do periodic merge or rebase etc. But then you have the fun of merge conflicts
Users do want MV3. The people complaining about it are in the minority.
Users don’t know what the fuck Manifest is period. They just click the internet button. And for the longest time that meant the E with a loop around it. Now that means the multicolored circle.
Users know that they want more security. MV3 makes a major of users that use Chrome safer from malicious extensions.
I get what you’re saying, but the average person has no idea what it is, why they should care, or anything about it. All they see is Google making their extensions stop working. And when that includes some of the most popular extensions, that directly affect Googles revenue, they’re going to think that’s the reason.
The overwhelming majority of users get their extensions from the Chrome Web Store… Which Google has full control over. Users expect them to be blocking almost all malicious extensions before they’re even available to download.
Why the hell would a user want MV3?
Because it makes a majority of users that use Chrome much safer. Do you do any basic research? Do you need me to point you to the getting started guide?
It doesn’t though. An adblocker is your VERY most important tool in a good security posture. Googles playing any users who ask for MV3 for fools
the minority of people complaining about it are the only ones who know what it even is
So is Android. So is Chromium. So is React, and Flutter. So is Java.
Open source doesn’t mean FOSS.
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Open source does mean FOSS. It doesn’t mean community-oriented.
No it doesn’t. Different licenses dictate what you can and can’t do with open source software. Some are more restrictive than others. Open source simply means that the source code is freely available.
It absolutely does. Open source is not simply source-available, it means that it follows the open source definition. https://opensource.org/osd
I’m grateful for FF, but they also annoy me at times. Just little stuff probably not worth bitching about in detail. But also a peek at the potential for problems that you’re talking about.
So of course I’ll bitch about it.
I call it the “stop whatever you think you’d rather do right now and pay attention to our product” type shit.
Imagine you have a combination wrench and whenever you take it out of the toolbox it starts yammering at you about how great of a wrench it is and all if its shiny features. Fucking ridiculous, right?
So why do we tolerate software that does that?
Way too much software does this pushy shit. Just stay outta my face and do your actual job, software.
Because people have the attention span of a goldfish and if you aren’t reminding them every 5 seconds of the features they have available they’ll forget they do in fact use them and then complain to support because they can’t spend 5 seconds on the help page.
I say this, not in defense of mozilla, but in frustration at having to deal daily with these kinds of issues. You can put giant screen-size arrows on where to go / what single “do the thing” button to press and people will still forget 5 seconds later.
Good point. That’s true, there is definitely that side of it. I think what you’re talking about is less obnoxious than the stuff that feels forced and make-the-boss-happy promotional. Push notifcations for no reason, etc. It’s a spectrum from necessary to uneccessary, and there’s too much of the latter IMO.
We’re so fucking used to ads we don’t even always realize we’re getting pushed propaganda
Yeah, it’s strange just how readily the blinders go up wherever Mozilla is concerned. They’re a corp, just like any other; if they had the money and leverage, they’d be just as aggressive as Google. Have people already forgotten that time they laid off 200+ employees and then gave all the execs bonuses?
E: Apparently y’all have forgotten. In 2021, Mozilla laid off a few hundred employees. CEO’s salary doubled that year. Fuck Mozilla, they’re no more your friends than Google or Microsoft; they’re the same evil, just smaller-scaled evil, is all.
But they haven’t threatened to undercut ad blocking yet, so as a comparison they are better.
Absolutely, but Mozilla is pretty much owned by Google anyway, and falling in love with these companies as wide eyed fanboys never looks good when they eventually turn.
It’s okay to like them while they do good and then change your mind when they turn evil.
I wouldn’t say “owned”, but the rest… yeah:-(
Who provides the majority of their funding?
You forgot to also mention that they are a cult where you get attacked if you say anything negative about Mozilla.
Looking around, I don’t think that’s true. Lots of bad things are freely said about Mozilla and the people running it.
You forgot to not shill for an actual corporation
I’m not shilling for anyone. If you want to discuss actual technical details I’m happy to do so. If you’re here just to share your feelings absent facts then I don’t care what you have to say.
“this is way safer for users” may as well be feelings. It’s not backed up by anything but a clear boner for Google
It is literally explained in the first part of the uBOL GitHub page:
https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uBOL-home#description
It’s like you haven’t even done the most basic research that anyone with anything useful to say would do. Why?
Firefox is a foundation, not a corporation. And I’m already using Fennec instead of the official release.
No. Firefox is a product. Mozilla is a corporation AND a foundation.
Besides the fact that Mozilla sucks, Firefox is an amazing piece of software. It’s PITA that it’s about to be enshittified.
Anyone else been having issues of not being able to load YouTube videos past the first few seconds on Firefox using ublock? I couldn’t find any recent information online. I don’t know if this is part of the war on ad blockers, or unrelated.
I watched several videos today on Firefox with ublock origin and no issues. Haven’t run into issues with ads yet.
It’s been a side effect of the server side ads apparently, but reloading the page fixes it for me.
Haven’t had that issue, nope
Yeah, yesterday. I just kept refreshing. FF + unlock + not signed in, seems to trigger it
Google needs to be broken up by government.
It saddens me to agree with this. Who knew Google would become as oppressive as fucking MICROSOFT?
« Don’t be evil »
😬😬😬😬
They ditched that in 2018. It was long overdue. At least somewhat honest about themselves.
Most smart people who understood capitalism did.
I hear the term ‘broken up’ a lot in media and discourse, but it’s never explained. In your eyes, what actually happens when a government ‘breaks up’ a corporation? I mean, what are the steps, objectives, and outcomes?
Not being adversarial, I’m just curious.
Not the person you’re asking, but my general understanding is that different products would be required to be their own companies, so advertising, Android, and Chrome would all be separate businesses.
I envision it like AT&T’s break-up, where the singular Google is broken up into regional companies that will (hopefully) have to compete with each other.
It really wouldn’t change anything in the long run. Any company that creates a browser is gonna need some form of income and people aren’t willing to pay for a browser. What would be their incentive to continue to work on the browser when they aren’t being paid?
Same as Firefox. Let search engines (including google) pay them a fair market rate to make them the default browser.
meanwhile firefox lists it as recommended and also lets you use it on firefox mobile.
Almost as if a browser company that’s not also an advertising company has no reason to fight ad blockers.
I’ve got some bad news for you. Mozilla bought an ad company.
i mean they bought a privacy preserving ad company to offer an alternative for companies to google, which is what they should be doing.
because like it or not people depend on ads for their sites.
Wait until people find out you can make the government ban ads - https://www.euronews.com/2014/11/26/grenoble-europe-s-first-ad-free-city/
I like their future (so far).
Sadly that news isn’t how it is right now. Picking a random spot in Grenoble using Google maps and searching for the first tram station, I find 6+ billboards.
Ban billboards. Very different. And are there ones owned by the city.
Honestly, not a huge win.
Banning billboards is actually pretty huge. I live in Maine where billboards are banned and the mental break from being constantly forcibly advertised to is so nice. Every time I travel anywhere else I realize what a huge difference it makes.
You can always fork firefox. People used to use website not requiring javascript at all and it worked well. Some people still use even w3m f.e. when graphics card driver goes bad after update and they need to watch some docs on the internet. Most current browser have most features you would ever need
Forking is indeed the way forward when Mozilla loses its way a little more. For myself, I switched to Librewolf about 6 months ago, along with replacing Thunderbird with Betterbird after using it since the Phoenix days.
I cannot remember what prompted the move to Librewolf, it may have been the AI stuff they were pushing at the time, or possibly the update that forced the tabs into my titlebar without having to go into about:config to fix it. Or the fact that Firefox was constantly pushing me to sign up for an account. There were quite a few gripes that added up over time lol
Betterbird restored some removed things I liked pre-supernova as well as a native systray icon under Linux and that was enough motivation to make the switch.
It is time for a new browser to enter the market. Either Ladybird or something built with Servo seems likely.
You can always fork firefox
You could fork Chromium too.
And my nerd bros try to get me to donate
It has made mobile browsing usable again for me.
Same. Firefox Mobile had been a laggy mess when I used it a few years ago, but a combination of some really aggressive advertising and the announcement of manifest v3 caused me to give it another shot about a year ago. It’s a dramatic improvement in phone browsing.
I’m warning Google that Google Chrome may soon be disabled on my devices.
It already is on mine, no trace of chromium or it’s forks.
Discord, slack, bitwarden, steam, Microsoft teams, visual studio code, balena etcher . Anyone else know of any electron apps or heavily modified version of chrome?😄
Teams has switched to Microsoft’s own edition of the same concept, “Edge WebView2”. Now that Edge is just being Chrome wearing a rubber Scooby Doo mask, I don’t expect the differences are vast.
Another fun iteration is Plex’s desktop client, which uses QtWebEngine… however surprise! still the Chromium engine underneath.
Signal’s desktop app is plain old Electron though.
Of the ones on your list, worth noting that Discord and Slack work fine with FirefoxPWA.
Holy shit I had not heard of Firefox PWA but I will use the shit out of this
I use the shit out of Firefox PWA. I just wish Mozilla would get off their asses and make it work out of the box vs having to install a third party app.
I do wish there were more native apps but alternatives to electron is always a good thing in my book.
Except for Microsoft, Microsoft can stop pretending their solution is demonstrably different from electron and chromium.
Discord bitwarden steam and teams all work fine for me in ff, i don’t use the others
https://github.com/gamingdoom/datcord
Works like a charm.
Neat!
Until you do more than warn they don’t care.
Linux Phones and Degoogled Phones surge in response.
What pisses me off is how many websites don’t work right with Firefox now. There’s been several times where I’ve had issues with a site functioning on Firefox and had to switch to a chromium browser.
I have a friend who sends me tiktoks that refuse to load with firefox on my phone. I consider it a blessing
Libredirect extension will redirect to public proxitok instances so you could watch them without going to tiktoks site directly
proxitok is such a good name holy shit
I read that most sites work just fine if you spoof your user agent to windows and standard chrome
That’s what I do and I haven’t had a problem since.
I’ve had some sites bug out on Firefox that I’m pretty sure weren’t really related to Google or Microsoft in any way. I still use Firefox obviously, but it’s annoying.
The point was that some sites neglect to develop for Firefox, and simply tell Firefox users to get chrome instead. Meanwhile Firefox works in most cases perfectly fine without any doing on the website’s part if it is simply duped into believing that the firefox user is just a plain old chrome user as expected. Doesn’t work for everything, but almost.
Oh yeah, I hate sites that do that.
This breaks any site that uses CloudFlare’s Turnstile for me. It will loop forever and never let me through if my user agent is set to Chrome.
This happens very rarely, but it does happen from time to time. When a website starts acting weird out of nowhere I keep a copy of Chrome installed just for that use and then promptly return to Firefox.
My insurance site (MyCigna) started working a couple months ago, but for years it failed to log in. It’s those types of contracted apps that seem to fail the most for me, like apps you’d see on a company intranet.
I didn’t ever have trouble with that site and always used it in ff
I see this FUD all the time but nobody ever gives examples. Can you point to some specific sites that don’t work with Firefox?
I was worried about this when I originally switched from Chrome to Firefox earlier this year but I can honestly say I haven’t found a single site that I personally use that I had to go back to Chrome for. Any issues I had with any site were related to ad blocking using uBlock or DNS based blocking I also do.
Costco Travel login page never loads for me in Firefox. Specific sites my kids use for school don’t work either. I wouldn’t say it happens regularly, but often enough to be annoying.
It’s not FUD but there’s usually more to it than just “Firefox”. Usually has something to do with security plugins. There are sites that do not work properly with Ublock or Noscript installed, even when you turn them off for the site. I’ve experienced it many, many times. It happens to me most often ordering food, because a lot of local restaurants sites are janky as fuck, but I’ve also had issues with more well known sites. Southwest airlines has been problematic for a couple years now. My credit union also had issues with parts of their online banking app, but that thankfully got fixed after a year or two.
TL;DR - it’s a real thing.
The payment provider my local council uses doesn’t work on Firefox, or Safari. I have to use shitty chrome on my phone. I refuse to install it on my computer.
Report it on https://webcompat.com/
Walmart.com didn’t work for me on FF for about a week, and it did work on edge and chrome (still broken on FF when I disabled all my add ons). However, they fixed it and it works now. I think it was just a problem with the build of the website, and wasn’t intentional because it definitely works now.
I think that’s what’s more likely - temp problems that could affect any browser until their web dev fixes it. Not anything malicious like intentionally blocking a browser.
And then, it’s just Walmart. It’s nothing that really mattered.
The local Uber eats clone here has the submit order button off screen. Reuters on Android sometimes has the top bar of the webpage shift down over the content. A video conferencing site used by my medical provider won’t connect the video. The 3rd party comment section on our local news site sometimes lays out the controls off screen. The Lemmy PWA on Android used to crash on startup (recently fixed yay!!)
FF is my daily driver and 99% of things work fine, but I’ve definitely found a few sites where they clearly didn’t test it. I still have Chrome installed for those rare occasions I need it.
And I don’t even necessarily blame Firefox for this. I used to do web dev back in the day and I remember making my shit work across multiple browsers. Maybe Firefox is doing it right and Chrome is doing it wrong, but everybody targeted Chrome because it has a zillion percent of the market.
It happens to me with some payments stores. Always need to go back to chromium based pos browser
Dev tools were borked on FF for me. Entire tab was blank
Microsoft teams
Pizza hut
Most of my utilities online sites
Bambulab store
I use firefox and keep Chrome on my PC for this reason. Off the top of my head:
I can’t use Siyuan correctly, my main editor, in Firefox. It only registers the initial backspace key press.
I do telehealth, and the voice/video will not work in firefox no matter what I try.
Live-reloading for Ruby on Rails projects doesn’t seem to work on firefox.
dialog boxes will just fuck off. I’ve never gotten webRTC to work properly, though that might be configuration skill issues, and or webRTC implementation skill issues, since it seems to only work on browser, not across two different ones.
I’ve seen sites just load asinine layouts, borked kerning, completely fucked text handling. Just goofy shit.
In some cases i’ve seen sites have no download buttons on firefox. I don’t know why, it’s confused me a few times though.
Apple Podcasts for me
T-mobile would be the last specific one. I couldn’t navigate to certain pages within to make plan adjustments.
TradingView
I use this every day with Firefox and Librefox with no issues.
I have issues with twitch. Given I only watch every 3 months for the POE announcement live stream, I just open brave for that one site. I have not tried to figure out if it’s my setup or not
I’ve been watching Twitch on Firefox for years without an issue, so it’s very likely that the problem is on your end.
Firefox has been, and still is, my primary browser since before Chrome even existed so, definitely not FUD. Also, it’s generally not Firefox’s fault either, but instead the developers of websites that don’t work in Firefox are usually doing something that isn’t standards compliant.
First to come to mind is that I can’t log into the account management part of the pet boarding company I use when in Firefox. Another scenario is that a lot of movie streaming sites won’t give Firefox video higher than 720p so in that case, Edge is often the only browser that can receive 1080p video. From my understanding the movie studios are the ones to blame for this.
Start page
Something I’ve been on recently. Microsoft Teams maybe?
Duolingo
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My home system. I’m not doing any extra security on it, either.
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Such as?
T mobiles website is the most recent I had issues with. Navigating to certain pages within t mobiles site would cause “something went wrong” or just a redirect loop.
The only problem I run into is sites that use Bluetooth or USB APIs to talk to a local device. Both Firefox and Safari don’t implement them due to security concerns.
Ohh yeah, VIA for QMK keyboards is guilty of that shit
I was recently trying to add tickets from ticketbastard to Google wallet to be able to use them offline. I have chrome disabled on my phone. Surprise surprise it doesn’t work with any other browser except chrome. The ticketbastard app just throws an error and nothing happens. Took me a lot of searching to realize it was because chrome was disabled.
I only have Chrome installed for the rare occasion where a site doesn’t work in Firefox. I feel like we’ve gone a bit backwards as of lately in building websites that are browser agnostic.
I just read about this extension today. Seems interesting. The description says It’s supposedly doing more than just switching the UA.
Unfortunately for work I may have no choice:-(. Several of our daily work products I’ve tried on Firefox without success. Those also don’t have ads.
I wish there were better alternatives. I may try out LibreWolf but I could not imagine it somehow being easier, though with enough effort put in the end result may be all that matters. Until the first update (possibly forced on the server end even if I don’t on mine) that breaks everything and I cannot do my work for the day, in which case I will absolutely go crawling back to Chrome, bc they have us by the short hairs there.:-(
Use chrome only where you need it.
Prexactly:-)
I went through the same thing with MSIE. Corporate mandates and stuff. Businesses are sometimes wrong.
No, they are always right! (Especially when they are wrong…)
My company just plain old won’t install Firefox without a good reason.
I’m stuck using chrome or edge. Once the ad block stops working on chrome, I move over.
I really hate the corporate IT.
I was at a job that was slowly transitioning from a medium sized company to a larger one, initially we were allowed just install and use whatever on our machines, but gradually IT started implementing policies where if we wanted to add something it had to go through a request system and usually it would be denied.
As a software developer this was just infuriating, it would hold up work, force us to use shitty software (like Chrome and Edge) and there would often be fuck ups where installing a new version of software would require removal of the old one and installation of a new one - which would trigger the approval process again.
Like - I get it - some people can’t be trusted, but we were some of the key devs for the companies product, we know what we’re doing.
I was rather happy to leave that part of the company behind when I left.
Yeesh… I would reconsider working there if possible, but being able to (checks notes) pay rent and afford food and medical care may just make up for it.:-| Hopefully you don’t need to surf the web much at work.
My company just plain old won’t install Firefox without a good reason.
If you have other potential employers in mind, the IT environment at your current employer and other potential employers is maybe one factor to keep in mind in making decisions as to where to work.
There are some IT policies that are no-gos for me at potential employers. I ask during the interview process.
On my work computer I don’t have admin rights but still I could install Firefox with no problems. It installed itself for local user only.
Adblockers are the largest consumer boycott in history.
Google isn’t just disabling an extension, they’re attacking a boycott comprised of 200,000,000+ people, all around the globe, standing up to forced manipulation of our beliefs and habits by profit-hungry corporations.
So, what they’re saying is: Chrome will have severely decreased functionality and users will no longer be able to protect themselves from sketchy ads that contain scams, malware, and other nefarious bullshit (often hosted on Google’s own ad networks)?
What are you expecting, a corp to… ah… uh… not be evil, or something? :-P
Thank you very much for summoning Jeff Goldblum’s voice into my head.
I… uh, found a way:-D.
Google is primarily an ad company
It did not always used to be this way, though it was always headed here.
Users can still use ad blockers. Users will be safer from malicious extensions sending all your web traffic to an untrusted party.
Whew, kinda weird to find a Google employee on lemmy. I would have thought there were rules against that in the would employee handbook.
I don’t work for Google. Are you in a cult or an anti-opensource PR firm? Why would that be your first instinct in response to facts? Go read the beginners guide to MV3. Maybe you could learn a thing or two before talking about feelings.
You gave no facts, just opinions.
And if you aren’t aware, astroturfing is a thing.
Of course they’re aware, they’re doing it right now.
I gave you facts about MV3. It is also explained at the beginning of the uBOL GitHub page which even acknowledges MV3 adds protections to users with some filtering tradeoffs. Those tradeoffs can be implemented in other ways but it is more work and would require other software. I am not here saying Google is perfect or that MV3 is perfect, but it does make installing extensions more secure for the average user. If you don’t agree then be specific. This vagueness that you keep utilizing without providing any details at all to try to make a point is a clear sign that you honestly have no clue what you’re talking about.
Nope
Yep. Facts.
You seem to be struggling with the term “facts”
Is your feelings facts to you? Which fact specifically am I struggling with? Do you have anything concrete to say at all or are you just going to keep being vague because of feelings?
Yeah, that’s not even how Ublock Origin fucking works, what a hilariously ignorant take.
Did I say that the author of uBlock Origin actually reads your traffic? No I didn’t, so stop the bad faith arguments. I said that MV2 exposed users to malicious extensions that were able to do that. Most features of uBO work fine with uBOL. Not everything does though, and I do acknowledge that. I’m just saying MV3 does make a majority of users safer overall.
Seeing all your traffic is required for an ad blocker to function correctly.
An ad blocker doesn’t need to see your traffic to function. That is the point of the declarative APIs. It is supposed to help protect users from malicious extensions and some forms of malicious software.
Yes, it absolutely does.
An adblocker has unconditional complete control of my browser because I want it to have unconditional complete control of my browser, because it cannot do what I want it to any other way. Taking that control away from me is malicious by definition. It’s more malicious when every single person on the planet with a shred of tech knowledge knows with certainty that it’s for the sole purpose of boosting Google’s ad revenue at the expense of their users.
Google Chrome is about to be disabled? Got it.
I know everyone is doing the “use Firefox” thing, but please remember that Acer alone sold almost a million Chromebooks globally in 2023.
Sure, many of those people probably weren’t going to use it anyway, but plenty were. I installed it on my daughter’s Chromebook that she was forced to use for school.
🖕
I use chromium for one thing, and it’s casting live sports to my Chromecast. My plans to implement a HTPC have just been expedited.
Sadly I’m far more attached to ad blocking than I am to a browser.
Google copying mrkrabs lol
I rlly hate how some sites don’t work on Firefox
Let this be my warning to Google that I will never go back to their browser when they do. Challas! ✌️
Gee, what a shame. Good think I switched to FireFox. Hey, does anyone know how to make chat work on FireFox?
chat?
Some of us never left Firefox.
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About that you can check this new extension : https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/chrome-mask/
Yet I feel it’s better to avoid using it and report web compatibility problems. Always masking user agent could led to believe only supporting chrome is sufficient.
it’s better to avoid using it and report web compatibility problems
It would be if sites were truly incompatible, but developers know Chrome/Chromium dominates the market and instead of bothering checking compatibility with firefox, they just preemptively block Firefox since that’s an easier “fix”.
That’s assuming the vendor isn’t Google and doesn’t have a vested interest in Chrome hegemony.
Still. Finding a site that doesn’t work and reporting it absolutely is the way to go.
Is “chat work” something like sex work but clothed?
