The world’s largest chipmaker promised to create thousands of US jobs. There are growing tensions over whether US workers have the skills or work ethic to do them.::Jobs at the TSMC semiconductor factory in Arizona could require long hours and total obedience. Americans may push back on the company’s culture.
TSMC about to hold the largest allocation of H1B visas given to a single company in US history.
Oh ok so we aren’t being slaves enough is what they’re saying
Work ethic is code for we want labor to be cheaper and not need to poop.
It’s probably also very boring.
The Factory in Arizona could require long hours and total obedience.
Wft does total obedience mean. Lol what bullshit.
I work in a semi conductor fab and I assure you the most inept workers here are the upper managers.
I have to give 3 separate updates a day with the same information to the same people. They are constantly worried about micro-schedules and push backs, while also requireing endless meetings to discuss why we arent making the deadlines. Its fucking ludacris. Also their Internet doesnt work inside the fab so I have to stop work early to leave and then email them their fucking updates.
These are the same people who are attempting to use temp companies to fill every position and then wondering if their workers have the work ethic. Lol.
Pay people a living wage and stop making their jobs miserable.
I hope you are making bank lol I wouldn’t put up with that shit for a week 😂
I dont work for the semiconductor company itself. I am a vendor. It is still bs but I have some insluation from the worst of it.
Alternate explanation: manufacturer from country with poor labor laws realises skilled workers are expensive.
It’s never been about US workers having the skills. It’s always been that we expect to be compensated for our labor. Paying real wages looks bad for their bottom line so they export the work and import the product at a fraction of the cost.
Actually if you read some of the stuff TSMC’s top guy has said, you’ll see there may be a bit more than compensation involved. It looks a bit like good old fashioned racism. Something about Taiwanese brains vs American brains. It’s not good at all.
I mean, these are cultures where racism is kinda normalized. Nothing particularly surprising.
Still it’s funny how in XIX century with the same amount and quality of equipment an English worker would be 4-8 times more productive than a Chinese worker, and now a Taiwanese company is having the same doubts as Europeans had back then about opening a factory in USA.
“If an engineer [in Taiwan] gets a call when he is asleep, he will wake up and start dressing,” he said. “His wife will ask: ‘What’s the matter?’ He would say: ‘I need to go to the factory.’ The wife will go back to sleep without saying another word. This is the work culture.”
Fuck that shit, that’s not work culture, that’s exploitation.
What? Tech companies the world over have people on 24/7 on-call rotas, and it’s usually voluntary.
Depending on the company, you might typically do 1 week in 4 on-call, get a nice little retainer bonus for having to have not much of a social life for 1 week in 4, and then get an additional payment for each call you take, plus time worked at x1.5 or x2 the usual rate, plus time off in lieu during the normal workday if the call out takes a long time. If you do on-call for tech and the conditions are worse than this, then your company’s on-call policies suck.
I used to do it regularly. Over the years, it paid for the deposit on my first house, plus some nice trips abroad. I enjoyed it - I get a buzz out of being in the middle of a crisis and fixing it. But eventually my family got bored of it, and I got more senior jobs where it wasn’t considered a good use of my energies.
Your internet connection, the websites and apps you use, your utilities - they don’t fix themselves when they break at 0300.
If TSMC’s approach to on-call is bad, then yeah, screw that. I don’t see anything in the article that says that one way or the other. But doing an on-call rota at all is a perfectly normal thing to do in tech.
What? Tech companies the world over have people on 24/7 on-call rotas, and it’s usually voluntary.
In my experience it’s never voluntary. Your shift is assigned based on a rotation and you really can’t opt out.
Yeah, but tech workers get paid six figures and TSMC doesn’t want to pay the workers. This issue isn’t that Americans lack the skills. The issue is that TMSC doesn’t want to pay for skilled American labor. In Taiwan they don’t have to. This whole situation is why Thomas Friedman’s theory on globalization was wrong.
A SaaS startup I used to work for tried to implement on-call rotations for their salaried engineers. No additional compensation was offered for the time you were on-call, and if you did get called, the policy was going to be essentially “take the next day off” - when we already had unlimited PTO. I was not happy, and made it known at the time. My manager mentioned that, being in a senior role, I might have the opportunity to excuse myself from the rotations. Ew.
The effort didn’t end up going anywhere, but that’s been my sole experience so far with on-call efforts in software engineering.
The article mentioned employees being discouraged from claiming overtime, so I do wonder how they handle on call.
I work in the US and I’m on call 24 hours a day basically doing IT work it’s not that crazy
If you’re on-call 24/7/365 without a break, and it’s not because you have equity in the company, then find a new job.
If you don’t, then your health (physical and mental) will eventually force you to leave anyway. I did it at a startup where I was employee #1 (no equity for me), just me and the founders, and I nearly had a nervous breakdown from it, and ended up quitting from stress. Afterwards I decided I would do no more than 1 week in 3, and life got better after that.
we are just a small company and that’s the reason for the demand of my time but the way that we do things I don’t really work after hours very often at all unless it’s scheduled situation or an emergency you can do this in a way that is healthy for employees you just have to have policies that protect the workers
Unless you let yourself get fucked over, you’re not on call 24/7/365 and for the time you are on call, you should get some sort of compensation.
They want to pay you shitty for 8 hours and than let you work 12-14 plus being on call for the rest of the day.
Here in Italy “being on call” is a contract clause, it’s often a rotation roster between multiple similar employees, and requires extra compensation
What the fuck needs to get done by a chop engineer on short notice at midnight anyway
Or are they just calling line workers engineers to avoid paying overtime
When I worked in electronics manufacturing, production engineers were frequently out on the floor. Common issues were:
- a machine was placing a part incorrectly
- assembly workers couldn’t understand blueprints
- materials were getting damaged in a process that shouldn’t have been a problem
- a custom design tool/rig was not acting like it was supposed to
- there’s something clearly wrong with a process (like it was designed for one person and not an assembly line)
If anything major (or potentially major) came up, production completely stopped until the problem could be assessed by an engineer. Assembly workers weren’t allowed to fix things and they couldn’t estimate the cost of continuing to run a job with defects. Our engineers didn’t work 2nd/3rd shift though, so every time a job had issues we’d have to drop it and leave it for first shift. A downed line for 8+ hours is a LOT of money and for a bigger company would warrant calling someone in.
(I think the bigger issue is not “work ethics” like the article said or “need” like you said, but that the US has rules and pay requirements for on call employees)
Call me an engineer and you need to pay me a lot more though so that doesn’t really make sense.
Our company is like that, but you’re not going to get a call every night. Each person in our (small) support group does a rotation of standby one week every two months. During that week you need to be available after hours and have your cell phone on. The upside is that we get time off for working after hours and we get extra days off just for being on standby which more than compensates, plus we get good overtime pay.
We have this as well. One year into it and I have never been called in. The network engineers have been several times, but the pay is compensation for the inconvenience.
It’s disgusting is what it is
So that’s what this is about 😂 Enslave workers and require them to be on call 24/7? GTFO with this shit, skills and work ethics they say.
Yeah and TSMC complains about US workers but at the same time keeps opening new plants there. It’s pretty obvious what it’s like to work for TSMC.
TSMC is likely opening new plants in the US for geopolitical reasons. I.e. they open a plant in the US and get some us domestic silicon manufacturing underway and the US gives them security guarantees.
You know the US government is paying TSMC hundreds of millions of dollars to open plants in the US, right?
Yup, no joke, thinking about it made me stressed for the people who work there. Damn, must be hell on earth. Yikes. I’m ok with being an IT working from home. They can keep their jobs.
Not much IT work without semiconductors, which is what Taiwan is known for producing en masse. A lot of these decisions to open new factories elsewhere are because of China’s constant threats to invade Taiwan.
They want to bring their own workers over so they can do exactly that.
Yup, it’s kind of sad that that shit is actually considered a “culture” thing. Exploiting workers should never be that. Wtf
That depends on pay and other obligations.
I have no problem with that, as long as you pay for what is worth.
I know engineers who had work where their had to be on call like that. However they were doing rotation and they were being compensate for all the time they had to be on call.
From what I remember they were getting 0.3 days of paid holidays for each 12h they were being on call. This was on top of their 5 weeks+ of paid holidays (France).
I think the issue is not the work ethic of the employees, but the ethics of the employer in this case.
Edit: I forgot to say but if course if they are actually called then they get paid for the hours they spend at the factory on top of the compensation.
The comment in this thread are a good summary of why TSMC has concerns. I fully support workers rights of course. But from TSMC’s perspective, WHY would they want to put up with all our ‘crap’ when they can continue operating in Taiwan with their standard practices?
Because America isn’t an island that’s a stones throw away from the world’s second largest superpower which has made it abundantly clear that they believe belongs to them?
And TSMC will be renamed to SMIC overnight.
Because we have them money to do it.
Because they don’t want to lose grasp on the chip market. Semiconductors will be made in the US. Better for them to capture the market than try to compete with it.
Also, why should we put up with their crap? The whole point is to diversify where we get semiconductors and not be so dependent on Asia. We actually need to figure this out in a way that doesn’t result in underpaid Americans.
Yes, but how many Americans will be selling to pay 50% more for locally made processors?
You’re not wrong, I’m just trying to point out this is a complicated issue, beyond just ‘capitalists bad’
Localization makes up for a large portion of the increased labor costs. The cost of production difference is most likely to be a wash because it’s spread across the output of millions of chips.
If you ask me, you are only taking the capitalist perspective by focusing solely on the fact that TSMC can do this cheaper elsewhere and doesn’t need America. That’s explicitly not the point of this whole exercise. It’s not an exercise in capitalism, it’s to start to reduce our dependency on other nations. That’s a national security risk that became painfully obvious during the Pandemic.
I agree it is a complicated issue and it’s not even really being presented as capitalists are bad. The way the headlines are being run is trying to claim that we lack the skillset in America, which is not true. We lack the skillset at a cheap price because cost of living and labor are higher in the US. Bringing an entire industry home is going to be complicated in a lot of aspects. We haven’t even started tackling the environmental stuff publicly.
US semiconductors can’t compete. Intel is stumbling, GloFo pulled out, and the other foundries are irrelevant for bleeding edge process.
TSMC has already won the competition.
Fair point however I would rather have chip dependance than exploitation
Work ethic? Fuck you and your “work ethic.” I do my job and I do it well because it pays me to do it and if I don’t do it well, they could replace me. Why do I need a “work ethic?”
They want US workers to be cheap labor without sacrificing quality. It’s impossible to do that so they’re blaming the workers for being bad instead of blaming the companies for not paying workers well enough.
I recently moved some of our team’s headcount from the US to cheaper countries (Balkan). Given how expensive the US is, it made no sense to hire there. You can’t argue against math.
Plus, there are great ecosystems growing in these low cost countries.
Just to be clear, by “skills or work ethics” they mean, the ability to enslave them and have them on call 24/7 and THEY have to thank us.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
It’s why the company, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., wants to get the US government to approve visas for up to 500 additional Taiwanese workers — a development that an Arizona labor union is trying to stop.
Differences in work culture between the US and Taiwan — where employees say extended shifts and worker obedience are expected — could bring challenges to not only the construction of the factory but also its operations after opening.
On July 24, a Taiwanese YouTube channel with nearly 3 million subscribers posted a video accusing the Arizona workers of being lazy and using their phones too much on the job, a bilingual newsletter on tech, business, and US-Asia relations reported.
But Focus Taiwan reported in June that when he was asked about US workers’ concerns about the company’s culture, Mark Liu, TSMC’s chair, said: “Those who are unwilling to take shifts should not enter semiconductor manufacturing.”
Liu also said that TSMC’s US workers would not be expected to adopt the same work culture as those in Taiwan — and that he’d be open to changes as long as the company’s core values were upheld.
“The TSMC Arizona fab is now in a critical phase of handling and installing all of the most advanced and dedicated equipment in a sophisticated facility,” the company told Insider, citing the deployment of giant and complex tools.
I’m a bot and I’m open source!
They don’t.
Yes we do. The problem is we demand things like fair salary and PTO.
You have PTO in the US?
laughs in legally mandated minimum 30 days of paid vacation
My state legally requires a minimum of 5 days. Everyone I know has way more than that. My wife has unlimited time off.
Is “paid time off” not a thing in Europe? What are 30 mandated vacation days then? Are y’all not paid for that month?
The law says that you get minimum of 30 day of paid time off.
If this story interests you, and you haven’t read Chip War, definitely read Chip War.
Thanks for the recommendation! Getting it now!
“You aren’t sweat-shoppy enough to host one of OUR sweat shops.”
Haha okay, xinny.
That’s why manufacturering was sent over there in the first place, to exploit a labor market that works harder for less.
We are not lazy, we just know we are getting fucked and are not too afraid to speak up about it.
